U3A Farnham, discussion board and forum

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: What are we going to read next? Teleology?[Oct 2013]


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 23
Date:
What are we going to read next? Teleology?[Oct 2013]
Permalink  
 


Following the discussion about teleology in Ch 16 of the Mary Midgley book, I came across the following in the Guardian weekend mag of 19.10.13 [p29], written by Oliver Burkeman:

"Since Aristotle, some thinkers have been drawn to the notion that the world must be heading somewhere - that there is some kind of force in the universe, pushing things forward. These teleological arguments are deeply unfashionable nowadays, but there is nothing inherently unscientific about them. In his controversial 2012 book Mind and Cosmos, the US philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that teleology might be the only way to account for the still unsolved mystery of why consciousness exists."

This book by Thomas Nagel might be a candidate for our next book - as it is new, not an abridgement of something else, on a subject we have shown a bit of interest in as a group and 'controversial'. What do you think?

 



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

I agree that we have shown an interest in consciousness and purpose and that Nagel's book could be interesting. I know that I am going to disagree with Nagel. I wonder whether it could sustain us for a full year or whether we would tire of it.

Here is a description of his book (from Amazon):

In Mind and Cosmos Thomas Nagel argues that the widely accepted world view of materialist naturalism is untenable. The mind-body problem cannot be confined to the relation between animal minds and animal bodies. If materialism cannot accommodate consciousness and other mind-related aspects of reality, then we must abandon a purely materialist understanding of nature in general, extending to biology, evolutionary theory, and cosmology. Since minds are features of biological systems that have developed through evolution, the standard materialist version of evolutionary biology is fundamentally incomplete. And the cosmological history that led to the origin of life and the coming into existence of the conditions for evolution cannot be a merely materialist history. An adequate conception of nature would have to explain the appearance in the universe of materially irreducible conscious minds, as such. No such explanation is available, and the physical sciences, including molecular biology, cannot be expected to provide one. The book explores these problems through a general treatment of the obstacles to reductionism, with more specific application to the phenomena of consciousness, cognition, and value. The conclusion is that physics cannot be the theory of everything.

And here is a critique of his book: philosophypress.co.uk/



__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 23
Date:
Permalink  
 

Ian, I do understand that the prospect of spending a year on something you know you are not going to agree with is unattractive - I suppose one would like to think one might agree with at least some of what you are going to spend a lot of time on. Thanks for providing the link to the review, and it doesn't sound totally attractive perhaps.

I don't think I am going to agree with Robert Nozick, another contender, and Mary Midgley was very critical of another of his books, so I have similar feelings to yours about him.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

Yes - I'm fairly sure I'm going to disagree with Nozick too.

Actually I don't mind disagreeing with an author if there is some common ground that we can agree on and good arguments are made.

So I don't mind Midgley. I enjoy her even though I think she has a hidden Gaia agenda that she is about to display. And I think it would be equally boring if I agreed with everything she had to say.

But I couldn't be bothered reading or arguing with someone on astrology or bible-based Christianity.

I'm not sure where Nagel or Nozick are on this spectrum. If they each argue solely from their own ideological position without evidence and justification (like Ayn Rand does) then it is unsatisfying, particularly as they are not physically present to defend their views. But if they give a reasoned case that isn't based on something like astrology or revelation then I'm interested.

So at the moment I am open-minded on each of them.





__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 21
Date:
Permalink  
 

Here is a link to a review of Nagel's book in the NY Book Review:http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/dec/06/taste-being-moral/

A book I read earlier in the year and would recommend is in the Philosphy/Ethics category: Susan Wolf's "Meaning in Life and why it matters", Princeto UP, 2010.The 130 odd pages long book contains commentaries by Koethe, Adams, Arpaly and Haidt with replies from Wolf. The book purports to show what gives meaning to one's life (as against the grand meaning of life.) It brings in the emotional dimensions in addition to the usual rational considerations in an attempt to form a rounded understanding. May or may not appeal to all. Did wonders for me.

Harit



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

I've just seen this comment by an instructor on the Coursera course I'm doing on an Introduction to Philosophy.

" If you’d like to see a very thorough (and I think philosophically interesting ) defence of a kind of radical libertarianism, there’s always Robert Nozick’s Anarchy, State and Utopia."

This is a recommendation by a professional philosopher who doesn't rate Ayn Rand and the neocons in any way. I'd always feared that Nozick would provide an Ayn Rand kind of rant which wouldn't interest me. But this post suggests not.

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 23
Date:
Permalink  
 

Dear All
I think Ian Laing is about to post some reading suggestions. It just occurs to me that I wouldn't be so keen on another summary [the Ray Monk we have been reading is a sort of summary]. Of course, summaries have their uses, but they also introduce their own problems. I'd like to read something, not easy, but easy enough to be directly approachable. I quite liked harit's suggestion above: Susan Wolf's "Meaning in Life and why it matters", Princeto UP. Or the Nagel above. I suspect Derrida may be too difficult - not sure. Any ideas about Foucault: for example 'Madness and Civilisation - a history of insanity in the Age of Reason' pub. 1988?

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 21
Date:
Permalink  
 

I thought I would support my proposal for Susan Wolf's "The meaning in life" with some editorial comments taken from Amazon.com:

Editorial Reviews

Review


"Given the unfortunate (but arguably necessary) divorce of psychology from philosophy more than a century ago, books like Meaning in Life and Why It Matters, which allow for dialogue between these disciplines, are a much-needed and much-welcomed development. . . . Wolf's essay is a psychologically sophisticated philosophical argument on the structure, reality, and importance of meaningfulness in life. Its psychological sophistication lies not in her mastery of any particular empirical literature but rather in her attentiveness to normal, everyday intuitions and feelings."--Russell D. Kosits, PsycCRITIQUES

From the Inside Flap

"Susan Wolf's picture of what makes life meaningful is at once powerful and down to earth, deeply argued but unpretentious. Part of Wolf's persuasive force comes from her stylish prose and cool treatment of profound concerns. This book is absorbing and a pleasure to read."--Kieran Setiya, University of Pittsburgh

"Susan Wolf is one of the clearest, most thoughtful, and most incisively elegant writers in contemporary ethics. She has an uncanny knack for putting her finger on important points and expressing them in ways that capture the imagination. In this book, she develops her ideas about meaningfulness in life with considerable subtlety, creating a work of genuine depth and importance."--John Martin Fischer, University of California, Riverside



__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 21
Date:
Permalink  
 

Having recently come across Aristotle's teleological view of Justice in Sandel's philosophy lectures I have to concede that it may not be all bad.



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

I've been reading a lecture of Susan Wolf's on the subject of the "Meaning of life".

She says "According to the conception of meaningfulness I wish to propose, meaning arises
from loving objects worthy of love and engaging with them in a positive way."

She goes on to say "One might paraphrase this by saying that,
according to my conception, meaning arises when subjective attraction meets objective
attractiveness, and one is able to do something good or positive about it. "

She goes on to say that weeding your garden might be meaningful - "it might be the beauty
of the potential garden that moves the gardener to sacrifice ease, and
exercise discipline in pursuing her goal."

Her paper is here - http://www.philosophy.northwestern.edu/conferences/moralpolitical/08/papers/Wolf.pdf

I find this very woolly. What is "objective attractiveness"? Why is weeding a garden "good or positive"?

Perhaps she explains later - I haven't read all her paper.

I weed my garden and also play solitaire a lot. I get a short term satisfaction out of both activities (repetitive behaviour with a small reward that triggers dopamine release). I know they are meaningless. In fact I believe all activities are meaningless except for the purposes or objectives you yourself give them - the reason "why?".

I notice that Ian T, David, Robert and Ann are not members of this forum so I will repost this as email.



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

Susan Wolf - a positive review.

I like the idea of having four distinguished scientists provide comments on Wolf ’s ideas in the book. The
last part of the book contains Wolf ’s responses to these comments.

I have emailed you the review.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

Consciousness - A Very Short Introduction - Susan Blackmore.

I am not going to recommend this book after all. I have read a number of reviews - the following is typical. I think she would be too biased and irritating.

This review is from: Consciousness: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (Paperback)

Considering that this is a Very Short Introduction, this book is odd and I am ambivalent towards it.

On the one hand, it is well-written, persuasive and thought-provoking. On the other, it is openly biased and inappropriate for a short introduction to a new subject.

My misgivings about it mainly concern the style of presentation of the subject rather than Blackmore's actual opinions. These may or may not be correct, but it is unusual in an introductory work to present and then dismiss the opinions of swathes of other researchers and present your own views in the best light possible.

For example, the use of the word "magic" in scientific literature when describing a theory is obviously pejorative. Yet Blackmore uses it in this way several times, while also describing the theories of Descartes and the 20th century scientists Popper and Eccles as "hopeless". The only theories that receive unequivocal backing are her own and those of Daniel Dennett. Other opinions are often explained in terms of facile metaphors which lead the unguarded reader to see such views as silly.

Balance is not an easy thing to achieve and objectivity is, of course, the impossible goal. Yet Blackmore should have tried harder. The perspective she has may well be valid, but in an introductory work one should give a broad outline of the field and let the reader decide which arguments seems the most interesting or plausible. At most the reader can be given a prod in the directions that seem the most fruitful, but Blackmore indulges in several hearty shoves.

The above is the main criticism, but I also wonder whether Blackmore fully believes what she is saying or whether she has thought about the true implications.

Firstly, it is rather strange to write an introduction to a field of study and then argue that the thing being discussed is an illusion and does not exist - why not write an introduction to alchemy? Would a convinced atheist write a book introducing theology?

Secondly, consider this quote (p81), discussing the self: "We can equate it with some kind of brain process and shelve the problem of why this brain process should have conscious experience at all, or we can reject any persisting entity that corresponds to our feeling of being a self. I think that intellectually we have to take this last path." In the space of a few lines, Blackmore dismisses the self and uses the words "I think...". If the self does not exist, what does it mean to say "I think"? Whether or not Blackmore's view on the self is correct or not, her view on this and her writing a book on consciousness are blatantly contradictory. Who will read it? Why put your name on the cover? Perhaps "she" has thought of this: if the self does not exist, "she" can hardly be blamed for any flaws in the book.

Overall, it is a stimulating book to read and it will get you interested in the subject, but some may be tempted to throw it out of the window at various points. Perhaps Oxford should rename it a Very Controversial Introduction.



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

I think we have three books in the ring at the moment - Nagel, Nozick and Wolf.

My current preference is Nozick, Wolf, Nagel but not terrifically keen on any of them.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Date:
Permalink  
 

This is a contribution from Ian T on Nozick:

"You may remember back last year when we were discussing what new book to study I mentioned that I felt it would be fascinating to study a work that had an "application" in today's world. Well Nozick has in my opinion come close to that whilst giving us a treatise that will stretch our minds not only in the political and social sense but as a great work of modern philosophy.

Nozick is a modern Philosopher greatly influenced by John Locke - who some say had a major influence on the construction of the American constitution - and in the book Anarchy State and Utopia Nozick offers a challenge to the modern day liberalisation of Western states. He argues passionately that the state can only be justified in the narrow application of protection of the freedom and rights of the individual.

He goes on in the work to set out a new model of how the utopia he talks of might look. In so doing he encompasses ethics, economic theory and his theory of distributive justice.

I commend the book to the group as I think it will test and probably abrade our sensibilities; an antidote possibly to the classic philosophy we had studied over the last few years?"



__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 23
Date:
Permalink  
 

3/6/14
Thomas Nagel - Mind and Cosmos; why the neo-Darwinian view of Nature is almost certainly wrong

I set out below some comments which I feel are rather poor but better than nothing. If I have time, I will put up something better as well.

This book is a recent work by a well-known philosopher which has generated controversy. It is shortish [144 pages in all]. I have not read more than a few pages of it.

In some ways the book appears to follow on from his 'bat' essay. There are numerous favourable reviews quoted below, taken from Amazon. Ian L referred to unfavourable reviews and gave a link to one. Nagel has written that criticism is to be expected as he is attacking an entrenched viewpoint. I read the unfavourable review: difficult to comment properly without having read Nagel’s book, but my impression was that the review was rather intemperate; for example, Nagel questions whether the number of random mutations from generation to generation are sufficient to produce the variety of adaptations we see; the reviewer refers to a scientific work which says the number is sufficient and ridicules Nagel as a philosopher for questioning this. It certainly does not seem to me prima facie ridiculous for Nagel to raise this question.

The basic thrust, the importance of the subjective view, follows on from recent reading of Wittgenstein and Midgley.

My guess is that it will be worth reading, perhaps very much so.

Average Customer Review: 3.5 out of 5 stars See all reviews (22 customer reviews)

Reviews from Amazon

Nagel’s arguments are forceful, and his proposals are bold, intriguing, and original. This, though short and clear, is philosophy in the grand manner, and it is worthy of much philosophical discussion. Keith Ward, The Philosophical Quarterly

This is a challenging text that should provoke much further reflection. I recommend it to anyone interested in trying to understand the nature of our existence. W. Richard Bowen, ESSSAT News & Reviews 23:1

[This] troublemaking book has sparked the most exciting disputation in many years... I like Nagel's mind and I like Nagel's cosmos. He thinks strictly but not imperiously, and in grateful view of the full tremendousness of existence. Leon Wieseltier, The New Republic

A sharp, lucidly argued challenge to today's scientific worldview. Jim Holt, The Wall Street Journal Nagel's arguments against reductionism should give those who are in search of a reductionist physical 'theory of everything' pause for thought... The book serves as a challenging invitation to ponder the limits of science and as a reminder of the astonishing puzzle of consciousness. Science Mind and Cosmos, weighing in at 128 closely argued pages, is hardly a barn-burning polemic. But in his cool style Mr. Nagel extends his ideas about consciousness into a sweeping critique of the modern scientific worldview. The New York Times [This] short, tightly argued, exacting new book is a work of considerable courage and importance. National Review Provocative... Reflects the efforts of a fiercely independent mind. H. Allen Orr, The New York Review of Books Challenging and intentionally disruptive... Unless one is a scientific Whig, one must strongly suspect that something someday will indeed succeed [contemporary science]. Nagel's Mind and Cosmos does not build a road to that destination, but it is much to have gestured toward a gap in the hills through which a road might someday run. The Los Angeles Review of Books

A model of carefulness, sobriety and reason... Reading Nagel feels like opening the door on to a tidy, sunny room that you didn't know existed. The Guardian

Fascinating... [A] call for revolution. Alva Noe, Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews The book's wider questions - its awe-inspiring questions - turn outward to address the uncanny cognizability of the universe around us... He's simply doing the old-fashioned Socratic work of gadfly, probing for gaps in what science thinks it knows. Louis B. Jones, The Threepenny Review [Attacks] the hidden hypocrisies of many reductionists, secularists, and those who wish to have it both ways on religious modes of thinking ... Fully recognizes the absurdities (my word, not his) of dualism, and thinks them through carefully and honestly. Tyler Cowen, Marginal Revolution This is an interesting and clearly written book by one of the most important philosophers alive today. It serves as an excellent introduction to debates about the power of scientific explanation. Constantine Sandis, Times Higher Education ... reading this book will certainly prove a worthwhile venture, as it is certain to have an inspiring effect on the reader's own attitude towards mind and the cosmos. Jozef Bremer, Forum Philosophicum

About the Author
Thomas Nagel is University Professor in the Department of Philosophy and the School of Law at New York University. His books include The Possibility of Altruism, The View from Nowhere, and What Does It All Mean?: A Very Short Introduction to Philosophy. He is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and a Corresponding Fellow of the British Academy. In 2008, he was awarded the Rolf Schock Prize in Logic and Philosophy and the Balzan Prize in Moral Philosoph


__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 23
Date:
Permalink  
 

It occurs to me that I might be able to read Wolf on my own, but not Nagel.

__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard